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Karl The Pagan
"political correctness" vs correcting attitudes

user1> user2: go into #anotherchan and see, half of the n00b questions are just about how to use Visual Studio or Eclipse, it's nothing to do with the language. Plus if you hang out in here long enough you'll hear peopl esay, "How do I modify the class path in eclipse/IDEA..." a newbie who can't even set up his/her environment is now trying to get an IDE doing something, let alone trying just trying to get code working.
user2> ok agreed, but if they are well introduced directly from the beginning it is definitely worth it
user1> user2: no it's not, and IDE deals with advanced topics and techniques. It's mean to promote rapid development of full-scale professional duty work. It's too much for a beginner. You would let a 15 year old with a temporary permit drive a camero the first time on the road, why let them use an IDE?
user2> that's not quite comparable
KarlThePagan> actually I like that comparison a lot
KarlThePagan> especially when you're talking about eclipse and visual studio
KarlThePagan> simpler IDE's like Bloodshot and SCiTE are better for beginners
KarlThePagan> those are basically notepad + compile / run macro
user2> so my experience is just different, for instance we had a group with 4 girls which all were complete beginners, we introduced them to eclipse well and it worked fine. period.
user1> and on the other side of the coin, i think it's dumb when professionals use a featureless text editor
KarlThePagan> count down to linuxchix aggro in 3... 2... 1...
user2> hehe
KarlThePagan> yup... she totally loved that bit of chauvinism thanks for helping me score wife points user2
user2> why chauvinism ?
KarlThePagan> user2, the idea that gender was a significant data point in your experience there
user2> then remove girls and replace with "some guys"
user1> KarlThePagan: everyone knows girls can program, their boobs get in the way of them typing
user2> same point
KarlThePagan> user1 yarly... eclipse is so easy girls can use it!
KarlThePagan> user2, the complaint isn't the language used, but it's just trying to help you correct your thinking ;)
user2> KarlThePagan: i don't think you really think the right thing about my thinking
KarlThePagan> user2, fair enough, just think about why you thought it was an important part of the story ;)
user2> KarlThePagan: yea i agree that it came about like that
user1> KarlThePagan: it's important because there are more male programmers than females
user1> maybe it wasn't his point, but a point could be that eclipse/ide makes programming more enjoyable
user3> yeah, girls are different from boys, shocking news at 11
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